As you know, OpiWiki's system for items and rankings gives us an infinite potential – we can rate and rank anything, creating meaningful rankings. To keep the rankings meaningful and serious, we need some guidelines though. Lately, a religion item has been added to our db: Christianity. Considering the character of our site – that we want to keep the rankings meaningful and prestigious – should we rank and allow to rate religions?

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100
User voted No.
3 votes
Dec 18, 2015

Definitely not, for the same reason why we should not allow people to rank and rate genders, races, or cultures. With most of what we have here on OpiWiki, there is at least some degree of these two things: objectivity and choice.

By objectivity, I mean simply that users can theoretically agree on a set of objective criteria that allows them to debate the merits (or lack thereof) of any given...thing...with legitimate points ascribing to that criteria. Let's take, for example, movie directors. There is at least some (only some, but still some) degree of objectivity that goes into debating whether or not a director is good. Nearly all users can say, "this is good, and this person does it well," while others say "yes, this is good, but this person does not do it well." The "this is good", the common ground, is what leads to good debate, and is what can easily exist in ranking of most items.

But when it comes to religion, agreeing on any sort of baseline is impossible. That's because religion itself is, more or less, a baseline, a way of thinking and a way of knowing. You cannot rank thought processes or ways of life, because it's very simple: you either are part of that way of life or you aren't. Either way, there's no possible way you could give a fair judgment or make anything resembling a strong argument to support your views.

Besides, simply put, no-one has the moral authority to judge a different way of life. Imagine if we had a "black people" ranking. Absolutely unthinkable. Who is in a position to judge something like that. Maybe if you're black and know the culture, you might have something constructive to say. But we have no way of verifying anything like that online, and the likelihood is that a ranking of that sort would do nothing but attract the Neo-Nazis and Klu Klux Klan roaming the internet.

A similar thing would happen with any ranking of any religion. It would likely attract only the people who prefer to hate on it, and would therefore result in what would likely be a very low score.

The effects on the site are threefold.

First, it will offend people. Now, I know that people simply being "offended" is not a reason to block out a ranking, but we don't want OpiWiki to develop a reputation as a site that allows for, tolerates, or even accommodates religious discrimination. When people see this score and take it to heart (as they will, and as I would if I found my religion in the rankings), they will see it not as a reflection of the limited user-base voting on it, but as a reflection of the site itself.

And they may not be entirely wrong. Second, allowing for any type of cultural ranking, including and especially religion, is an invitation to those who would rather discriminate against religions (imagine what a nightmare a ranking on Islam would be). It's like putting up a flag saying "here's a place where you can safely express your discriminatory views in what is presented as an objective and statistical manner." This flag could entirely change the OpiWiki community that we strive for; it could shift the base away from an intelligent, discussion-based demographic to a base who simply loves to hate, to give "the other" low "scores" in a seemingly objective manner, simply for the sake of it.

Third, it makes it far more difficult for us to draw lines...anywhere. Opening up the door to religious rankings puts us on shaky ground, mostly because you can't really separate religion from race and culture. If someone says they want to put up a ranking for, I dunno, "Nigerian Culture", and we say, "oh no, you can't do that," and then they point to Christianity and say, "but they got to rank a way of life, why can't I?" We could throw up some gates about specifically mentioning race, but then what to make of Judaism, which is as much a race as it is a religion? And as soon as we open up that door, allowing users to create ranking for entire groups of people, what's to prevent someone from making a ranking for "gays" or "transgenders"? Yes, we could throw up more walls, but these walls would seem arbitrary due to the fact that we've already permitted something like religion, which is oftentimes not a choice and which oftentimes does govern much of a person's way of life and way of thinking. It's like we've opened the flood gates, and are trying to build beaver dams to hold it all back. The very worse case scenario? OpiWiki could be used as a tool for cyberbullying, with users adding ranking for individual people for others to rank down and belittle.

Given, the cyber bullying is an unlikely worse case scenario. But considering that there are so many large negative effects and larger potential negative effects, and considering that little to no "meaningful, serious, or prestigious" ranking or conversation can come out of religious ranking, let's just keep those flood gates closed.

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0
main reply
0 votes,
Dec 19, 2015

Thanks, Noah, well-considered.

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100
User voted Yes.
1 vote
Dec 8, 2015

As the one who added the religion Item, i must admit i am biased towards saying Yes. But that doesn't means i can't back up my answer with arguments and reasons. It just means that these arguments might be rationalizations which i haven't yet seen as such, so please take everything said here with a grain of salt.

I think we should accept religion items and rankings because they are an important part of society, because there are little to none other places that rank them, and because it can spark important and meaningful discussion.

First, society. Religions have risen and fallen throughout history, shaping it and the societies and their ethos. The fact that such an important part of, not just our lives, but the space and time around us is left outside of "common sense" judgement is nothing less than worrisome, and their impact on the world at large deserves to be, if nothing else, rated and scrutinized.

Second, the need to rank them. How can you rank something so big and influential out of 10, when there are so many points of view and clever arguments to analyze? I say we begin with an easy, biased and carefree approach. If your life has been impacted positively by Christianity, maybe it deserves an 8 or a 9? If you just can't let go the influence of Christianity on the Dark Ages, and think it should burn in the enlightenment stake along with all the other ideas that are holding humanity back, maybe it should get a 2 or a 1? And if, after following that line of reasoning to its natural conclusion, you feel like other people have made important arguments for or against the item at hand which counter your own view of it, maybe said rating could be adjusted? I agree that ranking Buddhism or Calvinism as you'd rate your favorite coffee brand feels weird and counter-intuitive, but that can be adjusted as time passes.

Finally, the discussion. As stated below, "Religious discussion is fine". I think this is something we can all agree on, but i'd rather not have us just stop there. To discuss something is a purely intellectual act, which can influence people who take the time to read and understand what's being said about the topic. But not everybody belongs to the bubble of academia. Most users won't really care enough about the religious discussion to step into the fray and spend their time learning about obscure excerpts from some holy book that are being used as arguments against common sense and logic. I believe here's where numbers are useful. To rate something out of 10 implies giving a personal opinion, one that differs from any objective statement brought up or conceded, one that, at its essence, is what this website is built for. Discussion brings up good points and bad points, and might change a few minds or allow certain persons to show off their knowledge of history, religion or philosophy, but to rate an item, specially an item as controversial as a religion, is to give a pure, unadultered opinion that often rises up from the deepest part of your self.

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100
User voted No.
main reply
1 vote,
Dec 18, 2015

But what I wonder is, what type of religious discussion would it breed? When you start ranking religions against one another, you inevitably will get those who believe that their religion is the best, and deserves to be at the top, arguing in the comments section. You've got the Christian saying "the Bible says," the Buddhist saying, "there is no centralized God," and every other religion throwing in their two cents about what their book says, and why their book is the only right book because their book says that it's the only right book. You start a religious war in the comments section.

The fact of the matter is that fantastic, intelligent conversations can indeed come out of religious rankings. But if they happen at all, they will inevitably become hidden among the torrents of debate between people faithful to one religion or another. These types of arguments serve no intellectual purpose (you can never really convince someone that "my religion should have a higher /10 score than yours"), and usually amount, as I've seen on other sites, to throwing around of a bunch of quotes, threats, and condemnations that say basically nothing and only result in everyone getting angry. These are not the types of conversations we want to stoke the flames of on this site.

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0
0 votes
Dec 7, 2015

No. Rankings of religions are going to never lead to anything useful. Religious discussion is fine, but rankings will reveal almost nothing.

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0
User voted Yes.
main reply
0 votes,
Dec 8, 2015

Rankings of Philosophers or Countries or Visual Arts reveal almost nothing either, but they exist because of that one tiny thing they do reveal. The user's opinion.

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0
User voted Yes.
0 votes
Dec 9, 2015

I've been thinking about it for a little while now. I think some items deserve to be created, but shouldn't have the ability to be ranked/rated on a scale of 1 to 10.

Now, if an item doesn't have the voting ability, is it still worth it? I mean, won't it become almost the same thing as a tag?

I'm not sure what to vote for yet, I will wait and see if other people have an opinion, but I will cast my vote soon.

Edit: I have decided to vote yes, but I think rating a religion is practically impossible. To me, it's like rating a branch of science. It doesn't make much sense in my mind.

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0
opinion
0 votes
Apr 29, 2016

I agree to debate on religions, on questions that can enrich our own thinking. We always have something to learn from others. However, ranking religions can really lead nowhere. I trust people to post intelligent and open-minded questions. I've always been disapointed on that point, but I still hope. Maybe this is the right time.

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